User talk:37.45.240.25

Look, this is EatTheRich. First, I apologize for calling you an idiot. I'm sure you're perfectly intelligent, but insisting that you know better than the rest of us isn't much better. I'll admit I was frustrated by your charming way of ignoring the established fluff that Russ and the Space Wolves aren't nearly as savage or barbaric as they appear. This isn't headcanon, it's Dan Abnett's writing. Second, let's avoid a full-blown edit war and rant about this here.

The section as it stood completely ignored The Wolf King, Prospero Burns, and Betrayer, which all establish that Russ DOES feel guilt for what happened at Prospero/hates his job as executioner. It also ignores the lore in Inferno, which shows that the Rune Priests have some (cruch-supported) differences from everyone else's Librarians, that Nikea had more to do with concerns that Magnus specifically was out of control than all psykers, and that Russ made his Legion less savage and violent than it was when he found it. Russ' treatment of Magnus is still somewhat hypocritical, but it's ludicrous to pretend that Russ didn't have his reasons. Magnus straight-up made a deal with fucking Tzeentch and didn't see fit to tell the Emperor.

Well, nothing left to rant about, but psycho-conditioning. For it seems to me that attributing their "[advance] from living on Fenris, which doesn't even have gunpowder, to intelligently coordinating void wars and interplanetary conflicts while understanding the technology involved" to every fenrisian being some sort of an unsung genius, just waiting to be allow to spread his wings (cause lets face it: most modern people with all their knowledge base would be completely lost when thrust into similar circumstances, and we are speaking about 7-10 centuries vikings here) instead of a very convenient psycho-conditioning is giving the Wolves too much credit. But, as we do not know the full extent of such conditioning, it's hard to say for sure, as was noted. So unless you have some evidence to the contrary I don't know about - I would like to see it, with prooflinks. Oh, and Rune Priest being presented as apparently the only example of furry hypocrisy is rather misleading, so it's either the holy trinity of Russ (Rune Priests, wulfen and complete disregard for collateral damage, human lives included, outside of Logan Grimnar's direct line of sight) or none, leaving the reader to draw his own conclusions.

In terms of evidence, there are some passages in Inferno talking about how Russ and his Fenrisian Varagyr figure out what the hell's going on much sooner than could be expected. However, I don't feel like breaking copyright laws. And Logan Grimnar plainly is not the only Wolf who cares about collateral damage. At Thressiax, it was a pack of Bran Redmaw's Grey Hunters who defied direct orders to save the settlers from Tyranids, and Redmaw who promoted them to Wolf Guard, not Grimnar.

In short, they are space-vikings to WH40k space dark ages, but unlike real vikings are, to my great annoyance, deified instead of demonised in-universe, and deified\demonised instead of judged fairly OOC (the vast majority of the time, that is).

I agree that they're rarely judged fairly out of universe, but every butthurt Thousand Sons player will happily demonize them while insisting that their opinion is the objective truth.

And every butthurt Space Wolves player will happily deify them while insisting that their opinion is the objective truth. You see, the arrow does turn. A lot. Why don't we stick to facts.

There are no facts here. That's not how 40k, or most fiction, works. There are subjective interperetations of inconsistent works describing events that never happened.

"I'll admit I was frustrated by your charming way of ignoring the established fluff that Russ and the Space Wolves aren't nearly as savage or barbaric as they appear. This isn't headcanon, it's Dan Abnett's writing."

Clearly, we have different definitions of 'savagery' and 'barbarity'.

The Space Wolves know how to think. Their encirclement tactics and obfuscation of stupidity are way beyond your average World Eater, and in terms of reacting on their feet they're much better than the Raven Guard or Emperor's Children. They don't just charge in screaming (once they make Grey Hunter/if they aren't Krom or Ragnar). They have a complex martial culture that celebrates heroism and encourages protection of the innocent. They're mildly superstitious but don't see the Emperor as a God. It's reductive to say they're screaming morons.

Vikings. They may not be morons (well, some of them... Blackmane certainly is), but they are a product of their environment: barbarous and savage. The latter is not synonymous with moronity, though more often than not it is... corresponding, shall we say. Though I admit I am tempted to call them all idiots per se, they are pretty good at "obfuscating stupidity". Too good. Also, that 'encirclement tactic' - it's not that hard, it's what real wolves do - Leman's mom probably taught him to do that.

Real wolves wait and observe to see which prey animal will be easiest to run down, but they don't lie in wait for days and coordinate vox-howls to throw suspicion off. However, like the Vikings, they have some democratic tendencies (Jarls being elected by the Wolf Guard), and play up their image as superstitious barbarians while intentionally using it to intimidate enemies. As we see in Prospero Burns, they like to use the weapons of the enemy against them. Even smarter Legions like the Iron Warrios don't think of that.

You sure they don't? Maybe someone just took their vox-casters and boltguns. Next you'll be telling me that scarabs don't use magic. Really?!... Yes, jarls are being elected by the Wolf Guard. And the Wolf Guard is being selected by jarl. You're describing oligarchy. I wonder what Roboute would think of that last one... And Corax. And Lion. And Rogal? I know what you're about to say, Perturabo, it was a nice Cage and all, but... Oh. You wanted to say "Ordinatii"? I guess it fits too.

Nope. Read Prospero Burns. They deliberately take the weapons of their enemies and use them against them, reasoning that their technological levels of armor and weapons will be similar or neither would be used. And it works. Once Logan dies, his 20+ group of badasses will vote on their next Jarl. In the Ultramarines, Fists, etc, the successor would be appointed beforehand. I'm using the Iron Warriors as an example of an intelligent Legion, what even was that rant?

And the other mentioned Legions do it by accident than, by implication? And still it is oligarchy, what a shocker. A military succession order? Most unorthodox! Haven't they heard of oligarchy? What was that rant? Well: "they like to use the weapons of the enemy against them. Even smarter Legions like the Iron Warrios don't think of that." By implication, the other legions do not use "weapons of the enemy against them", the next line - "even smarter Legions ... don't think of that," - implies that Wolves are actually smarter than those "smarter Legions" since they did. I, in turn, wonder: what would the primarchs of aforementioned legions said to either statement. Quite simple, is it not?

My point was that the Wolf Guard voting on the next Jarl is something that just doesn't happen in other Legions (Iron Hands excluded). It's a nod to the Vikings, who would vote on leaders in a limited capacity. The Wolves' use of the weapons of the enemy highlights that their tactical thinking is 'unorthodox, but effective.'And if we're gonna go down the democracy-oligarchy route, even Athens only allowed wealthy, property-owning citizens to vote.

"I'm sure you're perfectly intelligent, but insisting that you know better than the rest of us isn't much better."

I do not. I am accustomed to different characters, fictional or otherwise, painting loyalists as "good" (*disgruntled noise*) and traitors as "bad" (*more of the same noise*), regardless of... anything, really. And this annoys me terribly, so I may be biased on this account.

You're right that that happens, but the Thousand Sons intended to raise all of humanity to a fully psychic race with or without their consent. In many ways, the 1kSons are the most sympathetic of the traitors, but that should be outlined in a Thousand Sons section, not expressed by shitting on the Wolves.

Raise all of humanity to a fully psychic race with or without their consent? Why does that sounds suspiciously like a certain other 4-meters tall golden totally-not-god douchebag plan?

The Emperor was at least smart enough not to invite Tzeench over for tea and croissants.

Molech.

That's what the Chaos Gods told Horus

Also, those were chaos gods who invited Emperor, Horus, Lion and Vulkan to Molech 'for tea and croissants' long before Horus' fall, than erased their memories and left a sizeable contingent of imperial forces and a perpetual from Emperors retinue. What a bunch.

Since he erased their memories, we really don't know what happened.

"The section as it stood completely ignored The Wolf King, Prospero Burns, and Betrayer, which all establish that Russ DOES feel guilt for what happened at Prospero/hates his job as executioner."

I recall Russ'... bemusement, shall we say, at his job, but guilt?! Apparently I didn't to that yet.

Remember his whole emo phase in The Wolf King? When he insists his conscience is clear? Reading between the lines, he's desperately trying to justify his actions. In Betrayer, it's pretty clear that he's telling Angron to knock off the ultraviolence so he doesn't have to kill him later.

Completely true in Angron's case, but in Magnus'... Telling yourself that '[your] conscience is clean' doesn't exactly sound like repentance to me. Instead he - exactly - desperately trying to justify his actions, like any person with a semblance of conscience would do when they did wrong and know it (yet did it anyway). Guilt? on it's own, is pointless. Harmful, in fact. It may, well I don't know, make you chase the people you wronged across the galaxy to wrong them some more, to further convince yourself that you are in the right and all of it was not for nothing, disregarding everything else that just may wee be important...

It means that Leman thought what he did was right from a rational standpoint; Magnus didn't respond to his repeated attempts to surrender. That said, once Russ realized he'd been manipulated he did feel guilt, even if he wouldn't admit it to Bjorn.

Rational? The were several points maid across to prove that Leman Russ acted irrationally. I wonder what 'rational standpoint' justified deliberate genocide of Prospero civilian population? And... "Magnus didn't respond to his repeated attempts to surrender"? Why would Leman try to surrender to Magnus? I don't recall that at all! Hm...

Typo. Meant repeated attempts to get a surrender. Inferno clearly states that Russ avoided killing civilians until the Thousand Sons started busting out the ludicrously dangerous mind bullets. They had reached the point when the whole population had to be considered tainted.

Like asking a daemon, who he thought was a spy for Magnus to relay terms of said surrender. Yeah, I'm starting to recall. Was it before of after he ordered an orbital bombardment of Tizka? Tainted by what? What is this "Kaos"? Are you implying that Imperial Truth is wrong?! You heretic!

It was well before, but Inferno notes that the Space Wolves literally ignored Tizcan civilians and lets them run until the psychic nonsense got going. Tizca was the most populated city by far. Again, while they're violent, it's a mistake to paint them as screaming morons. Furthermore, the Space Wolves weren't exactly the most ardent supporters of the Imperial Truth. Their belief in spirits, talismans, and runes run in complete contradiction to it, and Russ actually quotes Lorgar in Betrayer and listens to him in A Thousand Sons, implying a degree of understanding or even friendship.

"It also ignores the lore in Inferno, which shows that the Rune Priests have some (crunch-supported) differences from everyone else's Librarians, that Nikea had more to do with concerns that Magnus specifically was out of control than all psykers--"

And yet all psykers were censured. All but Rune Priest. That's hypocritical, for whatever 'differences' they may have, they don't make them any less psychic. Why weren't they censured (or why Magnus was not tutored, or otherwise helped by the Emperor, rather than thrown to the wolves (literally and figuratively) with the Emperors all-time favourite justification ("I DON'T TRUST YOU SO I AIN'T TELLING YOU SHIT.") is not in question here - why wolves believe it is justified, however, is.

The Wolves implicitly trust the Emperor, and what they knew was that the Emperor had given Magnus a direct order. There was significant precedent of the Emperor treating the Space Wolves as the exception to the rule, like letting the Fenrisians keep their superstitions and allowing them virtual independence before any other Legion. The Space Wolves see themselves as the only Legion that gets to cross any line to fight the Imperium's enemies (including, maybe, the two missing Legions). I'm not saying they're right about all this, it's the reasoning they're operating on.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Here's the heart of the matter. Yes, the Wolves have psykers. Yes, the curse of the Wulfen means they have mutants. But the Wulfen are barely tolerated, and greatly feared by the Vlka Fenryka because of what they represent. The sons of Russ have something utterly inhuman and bestial in their nature, but they use everything from runes to allegorical myths to frequent brawling to control their inner beast. Every Space Wolf comes from a rich culture and has an iron self-discipline that belies accusations of uncultured barbarism and uncontrolled savagery. They recognise their failings; it's telling that they call the Wulfen a curse. But the Thousand Sons? They embrace their failings and insist they make them better than everyone else. They charge around preserving knowledge and exploring the Warp, and Magnus honestly believes he's a better psyker than the Emperor. The Thousand Sons proudly trumpet their use of dangerous powers that PERTURABO AND DORN agree are uncontrollable, and when those powers bite them in the ass (flesh-change and destroying the Emperor's big project) they blame the Space Wolves, the Emperor, Tzeentch, Magnus... really anyone except themselves and anything except their own hubris and lust for power.

"Russ' treatment of Magnus is still somewhat hypocritical, but it's ludicrous to pretend that Russ didn't have his reasons."

It is. However I must ask: were those reasons justified? Yeah, from our point of view we know that Magnus unwittingly dealt with daemons, but what about Russ? He did indeed had reasons... just like Lion did. And Horus. And Sanguinius. And fucking Lorgar. Yet all of them showed clemency and understanding (in case of Lion - to Russ himself, the irony) where Russ showed intolerance and hatred for no other reason than his unfounded (unlike Mortarion's, for example) prejudice.

You're right that every faction has reasons, but we don't see fit to shit on all of them all the time. Even, as you say, fucking Lorgar has his reasons. He showed intolerance because Magnus would abandon his allies, even letting Wolves die in A Thousand Sons, to pursue his psychic agenda.

That's funny, because in "The Great Wolf" Space Wolves actually teamkill their allies to keep wulfen a secret. Guess where I'm going with this.

You're going to a bit of fluff that's straight-up contradicted in other places, and besides, the Space Wolves and Dark Angels barely tolerate each other at the best of times.

What 'places'? Well, if teamkilling is okay and not at all hypocritical for SW when they do it to DA since they 'barely tolerate each other at the best of times', then it should be even more okay for TS

to 'let Wolves die' for the very same reason, no? Unless, of course, you yourself are morally myopic, hypocritical or otherwise biased; then it's only okay when your guys do it.

How about Inferno, which straight-up retcons Wulfen as not being a thing before Prospero? And I might have to rescind that apology. If you're gonna be all "Wah wah wah, ad hominem", don't run around calling people who disagree with you myopic hypocrites. Though hearing a Magnus fanboy say myopic takes the edge off my anger. That said, I haven't gotten my hands on The Great Wolf yet, so I'll ask you to be specific when you talk about teamkilling.

And how about The Great Wolf, which straight-up unretcons wulfen as being a thing before Prospero? If you're looking for consistency - you are barking at the wrong tree. A make an educated guess based on the facts presented to me: praising one side and condemning the other for the very same things implies a level of hypocrisy and, in light of the... "questionable" ethics of those things, moral myopics. Disprove me, if you can, live with it, if you must. 'Magnus fanboy', huh? Funny. Here are the (shortened) specifics: SW hunt some loose wulfen, DA catch them in the act and go all "what the actual fuck?!", SW go full "well, you know what curiosity did to the cat..." BLAM! MLAM! BLAM!

Your recollections of other fluff have been questionable at best. I get paid tomorrow, and I'm a quick reader. I'll get The Great Wolf, then we'll talk. Did you even get the one eye pun? That's the literal meaning. And the behavior of the Space Wolves and the Thousand Sons has similarities, but isn't identical. The Thousand Sons use psychic abilities as frequently and extensively as they can find excuses to, while the Rune Priests are very limited and reserved in their use of psychic power. Toward the end of A Thousand Sons, Ahriman shows Othere Wyrdmake that their psychic use is in fact psychic, he's utterly horrified. You talked earlier about limited information? The Rune Priests honestly believe that their powers are completely different, and it's proven by crunch that they're more limited and controllable. To them, it's not even hypocritical. Also, one of the more awesome aspects of the Heresy fluff is that what you assume happened with the missing Legions. It can completely change how you view the actions of the Space Wolves. If they were Chaos-influenced/psykers and Russ had to purge them and their home planets, it puts his later actions in a more sympathetic light. If the Wolves had nothing to do with it, they seem more trigger-happy. Calling me a hypocrite doesn't change how the fluff is written. To add to that, what does ignoring an apology for an earlier personal attack while insisting that yours is completely justified say about your own morals? Ad hominem is ad hominem whether you speak plainly or not.

"Magnus straight-up made a deal with fucking Tzeentch and didn't see fit to tell the Emperor."

'And thus his Father wrote in the skies in giant letters: "FUCK WITH THIS SHIT YOURSELF, MY SON."' Maybe that's why, not to mention that he didn't know what he was doing, acted out of desperation, and in the end it worked well enough, to his knowledge. Btw, while we're at it, why didn't Leman saw fit to inform the Emperor about the wulfen?..

We don't know whether or not he told the Emperor about the Wulfen, or how common they were pre-Heresy.

Yes, we do. Well, their numbers are pretty speculative (I'd put em alongside Blood Angels with Red Thirst), in "The Great Wolf" Leman is afraid that Lion might tell dad on him, when the latter learns the hard way of their existence, and is relived, when Lion chooses not to.

Inferno contradicts this, suggesting that Wulfen proper were created by Thousand Sons dickery. These arguments get murkier in the face of contradictory fluff.

That they do, and both sources are equally new. Do they even have loremasters at GW, or do they just let writers to write whatever the fuck the want with little to no oversight? Ugh. Let's leave it at that till it clears, if ever...

"Psycho-conditioning doesn't give you tactical know-how, and for that matter you could say the same thing about most chapters."

Doesn't it? Because Deathwatch supplement implies that it does, the Clockwork Orange way, at least. Indeed I could. And would. Am.

It gave me the impression that it focuses more on giving them nerves of steel than actual knowledge.

Didn't they already have those, being Astartes already? I'm pretty sure the point there was not only to instil instinctive hatred (cause more of it wouldn't hurt - just ask Artemis!) but to point the mistakes that were made and not repeat them. Not to mention typical strategic and tactical drills practically non-stop for ten years every Astartes gets (even the complete fucked up failures like Marines Malevolent and Jade Dragons). Oh and there were machines that subconsciously drilled marines in Clan Raurkaan supplement, but that way beside the point already...

The Clan Raukaan supplement? The 'let's turn Ferrus Manus into a daemon prince and remove the independent Clan Company organization cuz lulz' supplement? Training is important to all marines, but psycho-conditioning just can't turn a dumbass into a competent soldier.

It sure can turn turn him into obedient one. Also: 'let's turn Ferrus Manus into a daemon prince'? Wat. How the fuck did I miss that?!...

Yes, but the Wolves are nothing if not competent. A Slaaneshi daemon called the Sapphire King was formed from the emotions of Ferrus Manus. Even the damn Fulgrim novel treated Ferrus with more dignity, but Clan Raukaan effectively retcons him into being a traitor after he died.

I think I remember it being the result of Iron Hands own suppressed 'daddy issues', not of Ferrus. Bah, irrelevant. Once again, it doesn't even have anything to do with... anything here.

It does. You cited Clan Raukaan to support your point, but given the lore-breaking and general bad writing, it weakens your case instead.

So

I really am sorry about the personal attack, it's been a complicated week. I think your arguments are reasonable, and debating with you is fun. Is the 40k page as it stands okay with you?

• I can't speak for the entire page, but on the subject of Wolves: I think previous iteration was better due to somewhat representing the controversy here (though arguably it may indeed not be the place for it - it's their short overview, not a trial, after all) and lack of 'Leman get's shit done', since, to the best of my memory, every time he got involved with 'heretics' he only made things worse for everyone (in fact, even loyalist aren't safe from this trend: like Corax loosing a full quoter of his legion acting on Lemans advice (tough love, I guess?..)). Otherwise, yes.

He broke the Thousand Sons as an effective fighting force, and they didn't get their shit together until the Heresy was over. He utterly destroyed the Orks at the Wheel of Fire. He probably exterminated the two missing Legions. He kept up a running battle with the Alpha Legion, tying them up and surviving in spite of the Khan leaving him out to dry. Angron and Magnus did't listen to Russ, but that doesn't mean Russ was an utter failure. His advice to Corax was to follow the orders Horus had already given him. All Russ did was convince Corax not to pick a fight with Horus and Perturabo. Say whatever else you like, Russ got shit done.

You still here? I've read The Great Wolf; the Space Wolves didn't fire on the Dark Angels even during the duel/brawl between the Primarchs. The Vlka Fenryka don't teamkill.