User talk:58.162.223.230

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Here's why I'm confused on your edit about the Chaplain taking the Tainted Weapon: There's no particular bonus he gets with it. You say that since he gets a Power Weapon already to take a Tainted Weapon alongside it, and while you definitely could do this there's no reason to. A Tainted Weapon offers no bonus when used alongside a Power Weapon since they cannot give each other +1 Attack, and you're either using one or the other, meaning one of these items is useless. If you want to use the Power Weapon then why buy the Tainted Weapon? If you want to use the Tainted Weapon, why put it on your Chaplain? The two main ways to use it are alongside a Thunder Hammer/Power Fist for a bonus attack, or to roll up Iron Arm. You can also try to do both, but why should you "consider swapping his main CCW for one"? -- Triacom (talk) 09:17, 17 June 2019 (UTC)

My point was that, as mentioned on the page, the issue with a Tainted Weapon is it's complete dogshit for dealing with armour. Hence, as the Chaplain always has a Power Weapon, that is moot and thus there is no issue giving him a Tainted Weapon if you have the points. --58.162.223.230 11:53, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Like I just said, why would you give him a Tainted Weapon? You cannot use the Tainted Weapon and a Power Weapon at the same time and the two receive no benefit from each other. Giving him a Tainted Weapon is a stupid idea because it's just a waste of points unless you're buying him a Power Fist/Thunder Hammer and/or Burning Lore. If you're thinking of having him go up against lower-armoured units, then let me kill that for you right now: There's no such thing as a multi-wound lower-armoured unit that he'll need just the Tainted Weapon for. Any unit with lower armour almost always has higher Toughness, if they don't have higher Toughness you can just bring a Power Fist and always ID them (and that also comes in handy for the higher Toughness model anyway). Putting the Tainted Weapon on the Chaplain is not something you should consider because it does not help him. -- Triacom (talk) 18:30, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps you should just explain your mindset, you know that the AP of a Tainted Weapon is nonexistent, so how does having a Power Weapon help that? -- Triacom (talk) 18:56, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
The point is versatility--58.162.223.230 06:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Then he should not be taking the Tainted Weapon at all, it adds nothimg to his versatility. -- Triacom (talk) 06:25, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
If you have the spare points, it does. --58.162.223.230 06:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
No it does not, for all the reasons I mentioned earlier. A Power Fist is far better at killing anything with the same Wounds/Toughness/Armour as he has, while a Power Weapon is better if you're up against single-wound models that have less than a 2+ save. A Tainted Weapon doesn't outperform either of these, so he should not be carrying around a Tainted Weapon. It doesn't add to his versatility, it takes away from it. -- Triacom (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
So we're at the point where neither of us will agree with the other.--58.162.223.230 06:45, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
We're at the point where you have yet to defend your argument. You've never said how it gives him versatility, you've just said that it does it and then never stated why. You haven't even said why he should have it in the first place aside from "versatility" which means nothing if you don't elaborate on it. -- Triacom (talk) 06:47, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
No, we're at the point where you're not bothering to read my posts, then. Because I have stated it, it gives him the ability to attack targets with a power weapon or a tainted weapon depending on which is better at the time. --58.162.223.230 06:48, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
This is the first time you've said this, if you think it isn't then you haven't read what you've written. As I've already pointed out, there's no occasion where that's a good loadout for him. Can you think of one scenario where he'd be better off with the Tainted Weapon and Power Weapon than a Power Weapon and Power Fist? -- Triacom (talk) 06:52, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
>This is the first time you've said this
So either you weren't reading my posts or can't read implications, because:
>My point was that, as mentioned on the page, the issue with a Tainted Weapon is it's complete dogshit for dealing with armour. Hence, as the Chaplain always has a Power Weapon, that is moot and thus there is no issue giving him a Tainted Weapon if you have the points.
Thus, I'll make this really simple:
  • A Power Fist or Power Weapon is usually better, unless the wielder has psychic buffs
  • The issue with said buffs is they won't always go off or be in range
  • Thus, the best candidate for a Tainted Weapon is a Chaplain, because he has a FREE (because this isn't 8e) Power Weapon to use when unbuffed.
Simple enough for you? --58.162.223.230 07:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I like how instead of finding a time before this where you've said this, you chose to say that I didn't get your implications. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you wrote this after you found you couldn't find a time where you've said this. You also didn't give a scenario in which having a Tainted Weapon and Power Weapon would be better than a Power Weapon and Power Fist, so here we go:
"Hence, as the Chaplain always has a Power Weapon, that is moot and thus there is no issue giving him a Tainted Weapon if you have the points." There's no benefit to this at all, none. He cannot use the Tainted Weapon and the Power Weapon at the same time, he cannot even use them to give each other +1 Attack. He's also not unique in this aspect, literally every Word Bearers character can buy both a Power Weapon and a Tainted Weapon because having the option to buy a Tainted Weapon and taking it does not prevent them from swapping their other weapon for a Power Weapon (they could even take two Tainted Weapons if you wanted to be really stupid). The Chaplain upgrade is also more expensive than the Power Weapon while precluding you from getting another Specialist Weapon to give himself +1 Attack, so I don't have a clue where you're getting the idea from that it's a bargain. There is a big issue however, one you're overlooking: If you're up against a MEQ squad with an Apothecary or 2-wound Termies, a Chaplain with a Power Weapon and a Tainted Weapon is dogshit compared to a Chaplain with a Power Fist. You're not solving his problem with armour, you're compounding it because if you choose to get him a Power Axe you're just getting the poor-man's Power Fist and won't be negating Feel No Pain or ID'ing the 2-wound Termies (and it's worse if the Termies also have FNP). Saying there's no issue in giving him the Power Weapon/Tainted Weapon loadout just isn't true.
Finally let's talk about Iron Arm. The chances you get it are slim to begin with, and what you wrote before this latest edit never encourages your Chaplain to get Iron Arm to begin with, and if your plan was to bank on Iron Arm the Power Weapon becomes even more redundant in the face of a Power Fist for when he's not buffed to give him similar benefits to when he is buffed and using the Tainted Weapon. In all cases a Power Weapon and Tainted Weapon is an idea that doesn't synergize well given the other gear they can get. -- Triacom (talk) 07:19, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
No offense, but I'm just going to stop responding due to this:
>The Chaplain upgrade is also more expensive than the Power Weapon while precluding you from getting another Specialist Weapon to give himself +1 Attack, so I don't have a clue where you're getting the idea from that it's a bargain.
Because you obviously don't play Word Bearers (and likely 30k at all), or you'd know that they HAVE to have a Chaplain. --58.162.223.230 07:22, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I do play Word Bearers, as well as Death Guard and you can see in the talk page for 30k how I've discussed various aspects of other Legions with other players, that's why I immediately came by and pointed out that it's a shitty loadout. I said you think it's a bargain because you've pointed out multiple times that the Chaplain gets a "free" Power Weapon, as if it's not something included in his cost. While I like using Legion-specific gear you don't need to put the Tainted Weapon on everybody, and in fact it's a bad idea due to how rarely it's going to get used on a Chaplain. If you can't consistently get a benefit from something (especially if it's something as low as 1/6 games), then you shouldn't be taking it. Even in the case of the Tainted Weapon you can always find another use for those points, even if it's giving some random character Melta Bombs. There's no such thing as having "Spare Points" in a 30k list. -- Triacom (talk) 07:29, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Where have I said to put one on everybody? I in fact said the opposite, once again proving you're so far up your own arse that you don't read my posts:
>Thus, the best candidate for a Tainted Weapon is a Chaplain, because he has a FREE (because this isn't 8e) Power Weapon to use when unbuffed.
I'll also note that ALL Word Bearers armies pay the chaplain cost, so it is free, unless you're dumb enough to run a bare bones Centurion, in which case you should probably go back to 8th Edition. --58.162.223.230 07:32, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I never said you said to put one on everybody, get your head out of your ass and don't make these kinds of assumptions. For somebody asking others to read what was written you're not very good at doing that. What I said is that just because it's an option, doesn't mean you should take it because it's an inferior option to other gear he could get. If you want to get to a better candidate for who should be wielding a Tainted Weapon, then let's quickly address that:
Almost Fucking Everyone. The Chaplain is the one of the few characters who cannot use it to get +1 Attack, whereas practically everyone else can combo it with another Specialist weapon. If you want to mention how only a few characters can buy Burning Lore, then once again I'll point out that when something only has a 1/6 chance of working out in your favour, it's a bad idea to bet that it's going to happen. Because of this the Chaplain is hands down one of the worst choices of who you should give a Tainted Weapon to.
Finally where are you getting that the Power Weapon is free and not included in the Chaplain's cost (just because he's forced to pay for it doesn't make it free), and where are you getting that he's the best candidate for a Tainted Weapon when a other characters can do the exact same thing for less? Him being mandatory doesn't change a thing as far as him "being the best candidate" goes, and it also means that you're somehow forgetting about Erebus. -- Triacom (talk) 07:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

>While I like using Legion-specific gear you don't need to put the Tainted Weapon on everybody

>I never said you said to put one on everybody, get your head out of your ass and don't make these kinds of assumptions.

Wow, do you even read your own posts? --58.162.223.230 07:45, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Highlight for me in there where I said you were saying you needed to put Legion-specific gear on everybody. You're imagining something that didn't actually happen. -- Triacom (talk) 07:47, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Hey for the record, if you think this is such a good combo, why aren't you advocating that other characters should use it too? -- Triacom (talk) 07:49, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
>While I like using Legion-specific gear you don't need to put the Tainted Weapon on everybody
>you don't need to put the Tainted Weapon on everybody
>you don't need to put the Tainted Weapon on everybody
And who else do you put the Tainted Weapon on, then? The Praetor? Because he'll probably have a Archaeotech Pistol The Third HQ? He'll 99% chance be in Termie armour or unable to take one.
I'm not advocating for other characters to use it because...surprise surprise....it's shit unless buffed, AS I FUCKING MENTIONED --58.162.223.230 07:50, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Saying "you don't need to put the Tainted Weapon on everybody" is not the same as saying "unlike what you're advocating, you don't need to put the Tainted Weapon on everybody". The point of that sentence (which you've completely missed) is that you shouldn't be using Legion-specific gear if it's not going to give you a consistent benefit. "And who else do you put the Tainted Weapon on, then? The Praetor? Because he'll probably have a Archaeotech Pistol?" Yes you put it on the Praetor, and no he should not be given an Archaeotech Pistol. You're playing Word Bearers, you should know your Praetor already has Smite, why would you take the Pistol instead of getting an extra attack either from his Power Fist or his Paragon Blade? Also you're Word Bearers, if you want to take an expensive pistol or go more for shooting than assault (honestly until the Ashen Circle changes are finalized it'll probably be better if your opponent only wants to use the 'official' rules) then you always go with the Plasma Pistol (if you get one at all) and Dark Channeling. An Archaeotech Pistol is always the worst option for Word Bearers Praetors because it costs more points, is weaker in both Strength and AP (which WILL come up if you're up against AdMech, Iron Hands (you pay 5 more points for -20% to wound them), or that asshole who keeps putting his Sergeant in front), and Master-crafted provides no benefit when you're already re-rolling the hit. Seeing as how you should also skip the Plasma Pistol, the points spent on the pistol can easily be spent elsewhere, likely helping buy Burning Lore in the first place. The third HQ is honestly pretty open unless you're going for Dark Channeling (likely to use everyone as squad buffers), but even then the Diabolist can still choose a specialist weapon so he's a good choice for it too.
"I'm not advocating for other characters to use it because...surprise surprise....it's shit unless buffed, AS I FUCKING MENTIONED." So why should the Chaplain have it when it'll be worse than a Power Fist in 5/6 games, and be of even less use in those games than a Bolt Pistol? -- Triacom (talk) 08:04, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
We have once again reached the point of differing play styles and won't convince each other. It is thus best to leave this here. --58.162.223.230 08:06, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
It's not a differing play style if you're advocating for a gear choice worse than his default loadout. In 5/6 games it's a worse option than his Bolt Pistol because at least that buffs his Power Weapon, while the Tainted Weapon isn't going to do anything at all. -- Triacom (talk) 08:09, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Not everything has to be 100% min-maxed. Likewise, just because something isn't the absolute best meta doesn't mean it needs to be instantly reverted from the page.
Also, do you not realise he keeps the Bolt Pistol and replaces the uselss CCW?--58.162.223.230 08:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
The point of the tactics pages are to help you min-max your army. If a suggestion isn't a good meta choice then it should be removed from the page. I agree that not everything needs to be min-maxed, which is why my biggest list (which happens to be Word Bearers) includes two Ghara Mal dreadnoughts, even though they are overpriced as shit. I find them fun, so I use them and try to find ways in which they can make their points back (unless your opponent is stupid or you're lucky in a game of Zone Mortalis it's almost never going to happen), but I would never claim that they're usually worth their points on the tactics page, because they're not.
Also, do you not realise he keeps the Bolt Pistol and replaces the uselss CCW? I do realize he keeps the Bolt Pistol, that's why I said "it's a worse option than his Bolt Pistol because at least that buffs his Power Weapon", which means that he uses the Bolt Pistol and the Power Weapon, which means he swapped his CCW for the Power Weapon. It's also why I said in the history section to somebody else who pointed out that he swaps his CCW for the power weapon (something you didn't know since you said to swap the CCW for it), that you can still get the Tainted Weapon, implying he keeps his Bolt Pistol. I've got no clue where you're even getting the idea from that I thought he'd lose the Pistol for the Power Weapon. -- Triacom (talk) 08:19, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
After taking a long moment to re-read and calm down, I firstly want to apologise for how heated I made the argument.
Secondly, I disagree that the tactics page should only have min-maxed stuff on it, so perhaps note that while the Chaplain can take the Tainted Weapon, it may not be the optimum choice and your own results may vary?
(Also, Ghara Mal are amazing fluffwise and I actually run a pair in 40k using the Decimator rules) --58.162.223.230 08:24, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Apology accepted, there could be a note there about how it's not the optimum choice, but the tactics page is still mainly for min-maxing your army. I'll try and change it so that it's less combative, but still gets the point across. -- [[User:Triacom|Triacom] (talk) 08:33, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps something along the lines of 'fluffy, but not the best unless you're good at rolling the psychic powers you want?'--58.162.223.230 08:38, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I'm not too sure about the fluffy bit since I'm pretty sure they're supposed to represent the Athame, since the one character who we know for sure who has an Athame in his final battle (Hol Beloth) is listed as having a Tainted Weapon, and I can't think of any other wargear he has that the Tainted Weapon is supposed to represent. It is a little odd that Kor Phaeron's without his Athame if that's what they are supposed to represent, but I suppose you could argue that's because he's wearing different armour so it would be harder to use, and I've no clue where Erebus's is (or maybe both their rules represent the brief time before the Anathame was broken down, since Kor Phaeron uses a different suit later and Erebus still has his face). If they don't represent Athame, then it's also weird that the Chaplain would have his Crozius instead of a Tainted Weapon since they're supposed to corrupt them, though again I guess you can argue they haven't done that quite yet. -- Triacom (talk) 08:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
At least according to the 40k wiki (which is unsourced, unfortunately, but seems to be from Know No Fear), there are multiple 'lesser' athames:
>Several of the XVII Legion's mortal Chaos Cultists on the surface of Calth also utilised ritualistic weapons known as athames, though these were rather small, mundane versions of the weapon, which was made out of flint or crude metal. Blessed by the Dark Apostles themselves, these daggers were considered a mark of high status within the ranks of both the XVII Legion and its allied Chaos Cults.
And given I remember the cultists were using flint knives in Know No Fear for the sacrifices, Chaplains carrying one seems pretty fluffy.--58.162.223.230 09:07, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I did consider those, though I don't see why they'd have the Instant Death ability that the regular Athames are supposed to have. I'm also pretty sure Hol Beloth didn't carry one of those, he had an actual Athame. -- Triacom (talk) 09:15, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Fair point. I'd mark it down to FW failing at weapons again, then. (Like a certain set of knives/dagger we don't name). --58.162.223.230 09:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
That's fair, they've been pretty bad with double-checking wargear through quite a bit of 30k, my favourite (aside from those) is Khyr Valen's Relic Blade, because the name alone should've been a tip-off. -- Triacom (talk) 09:19, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
I haven't actually seen that one, how'd they stuff up? --58.162.223.230 09:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
Relic Blades are meant to be ancient, two-handed weapons that only saw use after the Heresy, hence the name. Khyr Valen's supposed to have a Paragon Blade, but I guess somebody wasn't thinking when they first printed (and reprinted) his rules, just like they weren't thinking when they gave Eidolon the ability to lose the "Cumbersome" rule, a rule he doesn't actually have since he has Unwieldy. If you want to see the worst of it just look for the 30k podcast where they read through the Custodes FAQ (I originally found it by googling "30k podcast Custodes FAQ"), there were at least 3 or 4 weapons that had their names changed from how they were in Inferno because the Custodes were armed with weapons that didn't exist, and the FAQ had to fix that. -- Triacom (talk) 09:27, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
OH. I assumed it'd be a special blade simply because I thought 'relic blades aren't in 30k, he must mean a unique weapon that had an issue'. And time to Google that, I need a laugh. --58.162.223.230 09:30, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

My Page[edit]

Thank you for catching that edit on my page. I plan to deal with that slimeball myself. --Lord Of The Lemmings (talk) 16:41, 18 October 2019 (UTC)


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