Having looked at the Codex: Covenant, a lot it seems not only to lack balance and cohesiveness, but also pretty much disregards the fluff to the fullest extent. A lot of it is fine, but a lot of it is also kind of crazy. Made an example edit to hunters, bringing them more in line with how their fluff shows them, and with the "typical" 2W tough heavy weapon unit (i.e. oblits, broadsides, centurions etc.). Feel free to revert, but I'd like to help clean up some areas of the page and wanted to show a possibility for that unit specifically.--184.108.40.206 00:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- Sounds fine, but remember, the thing I really had envisioned for them was a relatively cheap (100pts per Hunter) Monstrous Creature for the Covenant that works as a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX of sorts. Not a huge danger (2 A, Fuel Rod Gun, oh so scary), but something that draws fire. You could get a Dreadnought for that price. Or 30 Grunts with upgrades. We can't make them too weak, just keep that in mind with them. I will not change it until they have been playtested or math-hammered in theoretical combat (and bullet soaking) since I really don't want to get into a petty edit war with them.
- Also, you might as well bring all our suggestions right here because just giving me an example is not going to solve the entire thing. Remoon101 (talk) 02:21, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Alright, I'll try and make a full list of proposed changes and hit the mathammer for the discussion page.--220.127.116.11 18:00, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
Re: Codex: Knights Inductor
I've actually been kicking around the idea of writing an "Imperial Armour" type book for the Aprior Sector -- not really a proper Codex, but more of a narrative (focusing on Inquisitor Lord Damnos's Crusade, for example), with some data on Apriori vehicles and weapons along the way. Like you, I am hampered by the lack of artwork (though I'm trying to whip up some concept art -- schematics and such). I'm eager to see what you come up with for your rules! Some thoughts:
"And They Shall Know Reason" and "Reasonable Tactics" sound a little...goofy, I guess. Maybe something like "Cool-Headed" or "Steady Under Fire" for the former (or "Chapter Tactics"?), and something like "Art of War" for the latter? If you do choose to use ATSKR (or whatever name it ends up with) instead of ATSKNF, I would make it clear that the unit "may always test to regroup," since they don't automatically pass. Regarding Stubborn, maybe certain units could grant Stubbornness, like Pedro Kantor or Darnath Lysander? I'll have more information when the "Organizations and Characters" section of the Aprior Sector article is finished, but not all Knights Inductor are identical; there's a spectrum of how patient they are, and one Captain in particular is known for being much more willing to commit force than his fellows (Captain Isaac Rico, of Second Company, "Rico's Roughnecks") -- he's still absolutely dedicated to the defense of humanity, but he feels (along with his Company, and many other Assault Marines) that the only language that Mankind's enemies understand is violence.
Regarding Null Aura, the -1 Ld to the psychic test for someone trying to use a psychic power on them (a la The Aegis) is definitely common to all Knights Inductor, while the -1 Ld to all Daemons and Psykers within 6" might be better limited to Silencers (speaking of which, what do you have in mind for Null Powers? Maybe some kind of aura of fear, or Null Zone?).
Regarding Auxiliaries, you should definitely check out the Tyrant's Legion list, from Imperial Armour Volume 9 (available on /rs/). The Astral Claws were...less benevolent than the Knights Inductor (to say the least), but they did have a unified force, much like the Apriori do (in fact, it is this similarity that disturbed many of Inquisitor Lord Damnos's Space Marine allies).
I'd better get cracking on the rest of the Aprior Sector article -- I think you will find it helpful, both for characters and for special units!
--Not LongPoster Again 06:11, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- For the names of the rules, they're just tags until I can think of something better. "Steady Under Fire" sounds good for ATSKR, though I'll try thinking of something good for "Reasonable Tactics". "Chapter Tactics" is too vanilla for my tastes, and "Art of War" isn't wholly unique. I'll keep in mind to add the "may always test to regroup". Regarding "Null Aura", yes, that is something I took directly from the Aegis from Grey Knights, and it sounds like a sound idea to move the the additional effect to SIlencers. It'll make the points cost of the rule go down so I won't have to up the cost of individual Knights.
- I've been having trouble spinning off more than 6-7 Null Powers for Silencers, and some of them are very specific. For example: Synaptic Disruptor, basically the Silencer is turned into an anti-Synpase creature. Tyranid units within 12" of him are counted as being automatically out of range of a Synpase creature. I understand that Silencers can "shape" and otherwise form their "null aura" to different ends but otherwise they are much more limited than Psykers. Other powers: aura of despair; defensive grenades, strike of horror; inflicts a morale check, sanctuary (or another name); same as Grey Knights, Warp Void; Silencer acts as living Runes of Warding to Psykers within 24". Can Silencers affect shields? Because that'll give me an excuse to put in Null Zone there
- I'll be creating unique character codex entries as long as you make 'em. I'm liking how the proto-rules are shaping out so far, and I'm sure they'll become something to be proud of. Remoon101 06:42, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- I like what I see so far!
- Maybe a better name for "Null Aura" would be something like "Warp Resilience" or "Mental Fortress" (to set it apart from what Silencers can do). I think the second sentence could be clarified to read "A Psyker within 6" of a unit with this rule suffers -1 Ld when testing to use any psychic power." Speaking of Silencers, I can't think of a reason for them to disrupt shields or Machine Spirits. I guess they're just stuck with being a situational, anti-psyker unit -- maybe they can get wargear inspired by the Grey Knights codex to expand their usefulness, like an Animus Speculum, or totally-not-Nemesis force weapons, or not-Psilencers, or other such things. (Obviously they are keyed to work with the blank-ness of the wielder rather than the psychic power, but the rules can be the same.)
- Regarding some of your wargear, Trooper armor is available to Scouts, so it definitely does tie in with the Knights. I'm also wondering if there is a way to represent the fact that Trooper armor lets its wearer carry heavier loads longer and faster than a regular human; maybe it could let them carry an extra piece of wargear, or be Fleet, or count as stationary for firing rapid-fire weapons, or assault after firing rapid-fire weapons, or get an extra Attack, or carry Heavy Weapons alone (rather than as a team)...I dunno. I don't know the 40K rules very well, so I'm just throwing ideas at the wall in the hope that something sticks. (I guess if Astartes power armor isn't able to let its wearer count as stationary or assault when firing rapid-fire, it doesn't make much sense for Trooper armor to do so, either, but the other things seem to make sense.)
- I've got an idea that I'm struggling to name, but the idea is that the Apriori Ad-mech have figured out a way to link the Astartes Tactical Grid with Imperial Guard vox-casters (possible names: Tactical Network [TacNet], Joint Tactical Awareness Network [JTAN], Joint Tactical Grid [as an extension of Astartes Tactical Grid]), allowing all kinds of tactical data to easily get exchanged. Squads and vehicles with a TacNet link (possibly a buyable upgrade to Apriori vehicles and armor [including Trooper armor], or maybe it comes automatically?) can do nifty things -- a unit equipped with a target designator can put markers on a target which basically act like Tau markerlights, maybe something to do with re-rolling orders (a la vox-casters), or re-rolling for reserves, or reducing/eliminating scatter for allies Deep Striking nearby (as long as they are also part of the network?), or being a spotter for units which don't have line of sight...basically, anything cool related to having tactical information. I don't have the energy right now to think about which of these abilities can be bundled together or bought separately.
- I'll have more ideas in the morning, when I have more energy. --Not LongPoster Again 07:40, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
- Changes to the aforementioned rules have been made. As for the Silencers, their powers can't exactly disrupt shields, but they have a Null Rod (anti-force weapon) that's a power weapon, forced re-rolls of successful invulnerable saves, and also does bad stuff to psykers in the meantime. Maybe they can get the equivalent of psykotroke grenades, and the like. I dunno about the Trooper armor, I'm thinking it would give +1 Strength and/or Relentless. Probably Relentless, Scouts are strong enough as it is and a exo-suit like that would be more than enough to allow firing whilst moving.
- As for your tactical network idea, I'm way ahead of you. It already has a name and shape for my other custom codex: Forces of Ragoon. It went by a different name of course: "Integrated Automatic Targeting Systems (IATS) Interface." It allows half of the unit to do one of the following: aim at a specific model, 6's to hit will hit the designated model. re-roll 1's to hit. re-roll 1's to wound/Armor Pen. Tracer attachments: Range: 18" Strength: - AP: - Type: Heavy 1, Tracer would provide the other effects you describe, counting as a combi-weapon or something. Remoon101 16:49, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know if you've gotten a look at the new Horus Heresy book from Forge World, but there's an item in there called a "nuncio-vox" that does some of what I imagined; in particular, it causes Deep-Striking units arriving within 6" to not scatter, and a model equipped with one can spot for artillery ("barrage weapons"). --Not LongPoster Again 00:04, 20 October 2012 (BST)
From the Auxiliaries section, I think you mean "the best weapons the robust Apriori industries have to offer." I would additionally say that Apriori Guard units "are the equals of some of the more famous Imperial regiments." I mean, Cadia's been at constant war with Eldritch Things From Beyond since M31; that's a head start that's tough to beat.
Not sure about giving Relentless to Trooper armor, if Power Armor doesn't grant it (and I'm wavering back and forth on whether or not Mk. IX [or Mk. X, or Mk. XVI, or whatever mark the Knights are up to] armor should grant it).
An idea for dealing with "Perils of the Warp" for Silencers -- maybe, instead of taking a wound, their power misfires somehow and everyone around them gets a taste of the null-field -- all nearby units have to take a Morale test to avoid...I dunno, falling back, or derping out and being unable to act for their next turn (getting Pinned?), or something. Speaking of Silencers, I would make it clear that Silencers don't "count as" psykers -- they simply use the same rules for psychic powers. Also, an idea for an Apocalypse formation: some kind of Silencer squad, like for dealing with really huge daemonic problems. Being in formation could boost the range or intensity of some of their powers' effects.
Regarding experimental weapons: maybe they can be 0-1 choices, unless you've got a techmarine or Master of the Forge, and then they are more available. Also, a specific idea for the grav-driver: you could use Tau railgun stats, or maybe use lascannon stats with a slight boost, or maybe it ignores or reduces cover saves as it punches through...just about anything, really (these ideas aren't mutually exclusive).
Finally, another wargear idea: some kind of special Hunter-Killer that always resolves hits against Side Armor; like modern anti-tank missiles, they fly up, and then come down on the top of enemy armor (possible names: Seeker, Thunderbolt, Skybolt -- I kind of like the last one).
Anyway, keep up the good work! I promise, I'll have more info on special technologies and characters soon. --Not LongPoster Again 06:53, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
- Made the necessary changes. Trooper Armor has Relentless, and has some fluff to back it up; the Apriori aren't trying to merely replicate powered armor, they're also simultaneously trying to improve upon it! Experimental weapons will include the limitations mentioned, once I get to the army lists (but that's going to be a pain, and after I'm done with the individual codex entries), also added the GAC Cannon. I already have a Hunter-Killer missile idea in mind; it has +D3 armor penetration, representing the fact that it is a "smart" missile, and is able to pinpoint weak points on the fly. Still one-shot use, of course.
- Also, I'm giving each main unit a special ability, one for Tactical squads, one for Assault squads, one for Devastators so far. Tactical squads can Fire For Effect!, adding +1 shot to all bolt pistols, boltguns, storm bolters, and Heavy bolters. They cannot fire the next turn as they would be reloading. Assault squads can Overtake the enemy, getting Fleet, but they cannot perform Sweeping Advances the turn they assault. Devastators can Focus Fire!, meaning if more than one weapon of the same type fires as a single weapon, they gain certain benefits that are cumulative: 2=re-roll failed rolls to wound/armor pen, 3=re-roll failed rolls to hit, 4=the weapon gains +1 Strength. Example: 4 Heavy bolters firing as a single, focused Heavy Bolter would be Strength 6, and the player can re-roll failed rolls to hit and to wound/armor pen. These abilities tack on another +5pts per squad, included in the initial cost, since they have their inherent limitations.
- I'm also trying to figure out how the Veterans are going to go. So far they can choose to exchange their extra attack for +1 to either WS or BS at no extra cost. The only thing is is that it would be somewhat confusing for Command squads (since you could have either close combat/ranged warfare Veterans) but I don't want Veterans to have both WS5 BS5 in exchange for -1A.
- Apocalypse ideas will have to wait, it's nothing without the codex. I've also been going around the Facebook 40k group, getting feedback on the rules and such. 19pts per marine is being touted as reasonable (lolirony?) considering the special rules they'll be getting. Empyrean Anathema is considered to be a very minor special rules, since it only effects like 15% of units in the whole entire game, or not even that much. Being able to deploy as if your whole army were Infiltrators is big, but the extra points costs justifies it, it's not terribly broken according to the opinion of some very experienced gamers. So that's going well. I'll be scavenging pics as stand-ins for the meantime. I'll also eventually create a few more fluff pages that includes a few major battles (I'll be taking that directly from any writefaggotry, provided it isn't too lengthy). Remoon101 22:42, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm. So, would this focus-fired Heavy Bolter still be Heavy 3 (as opposed to Heavy 12)? I'm also curious about Overtake: are they not allowed to perform a Sweeping Advance ever, or is that just on a turn that they use the Overtake ability (or is Overtake an always-on sort of thing)? I'm not sure that I like some of these trade-offs; have you or your confederates found them useful?
- If I might suggest an alternate fluff entry for the Trooper: "Trooper armor is not as strong or well-armored as full power armor, but its relative simplicity makes it much easier to maintain and modify; as such, it is used as a testbed for experimental technologies. The present iteration of Trooper armor incorporates advanced gyro-stabilizers and auto-servos to keep weapons on-target when the wearer is on the move; when the complex mechanisms of Astartes power armor are better understood, the Knights' Techmarines hope to implement a similar feature in all of their brothers' armor." This not only explains what Trooper armor does, but why it was built that way. --Not LongPoster Again 14:14, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Made the changes to the Trooper armor entry. The focus-fired Heavy Bolter would only fire three shots. I haven't tested probabilities yet (whether the benefits gained from sacrificing shots outweigh the fact that you're losing those extra shots). As for Overtake, I'm going to make it that they can choose to run the last stretch and use the ability, if they are found to be out of assault range initially. Overtake does not allow you to perform a Sweeping Advance the same turn that you assault. So if I managed to assault your unit via Overtake, then the following close combat even if I win by a staggering amount and such, the enemy would be able to get away cleanly.
I might just simplify the Focus Fire ability that if they reduce their range they can re-roll failed to hit and/or to wound rolls. So -12" range in exchange for re-roll hits/wounds. That might make more sense actually. As for the trade-offs, it all depends on how you use them, tactically. Focus-Fire (the one I just suggested, that is) is a no brainer, Fire For Effect is useful for getting in that last storm of fire before being forced into close combat, and Overtake is useful for finding the extra inches you need to close in for an assault. Remoon101 20:23, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
- Brought up some special rules to be looked at by fellow wargamers. Fire For Effect will no longer add +1 to each shot being fired; it will allow re-rolls to hit, and the squad can't fire with those weapons the next turn. However, it will also be a "free" ability now for the Tactical Squad Remoon101 21:57, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
We have arrived, and it is now that we perform our charge. In fealty of the God-Emperor, our undying Lord, and by the grace of the Golden Throne, I'm here to make Knights Inductor better and less overpowered. ;) Let's begin. (Whoops, wiki ate the newlines. Baw.)
Why are they not Pinnable? Sounds reasonable to go to ground if under sniper fire, and they're Ld10 anyway, so the immunity is a waste. And pinned squads can't use defensive grenades, too.
I guess Practical Warfare allows the whole army to Infiltrate... dunno. Combat Tactics sound more reasonable. You already have Stealth and Defensive Grenades as options, including Infiltrate basically makes Power Armored Marines act like Scouts. Which is, while flavorful, bad in game. And Infiltrating transports? Wat?
Pariahs are not targetable by psychic powers. I guess KI should do without any Librarians and Silencers to balance — in return, the opponent can't affect the Knights and their vehicles with any psychic powers (including AoE), but he still can buff his own units. Shadow in the Warp-like mechanic could represent their emptiness — cast on 3D6 within 12", but can't suffer Perils as the warp is pacified.
If you will include Librarians... well. Radiant Shield with Camo Cloaks means 3++ — OP. 36" Warp Lance on an Independent Character — OP (poor Zoanthropes, even they only get 18" and 3++). Wind Walker — blatantly OP. Charge range of 24" with ordinary troops? Wait, is that half of the goddamn board? Sword dunno, messing with your opponent's stats, permanently and cumulatively, is bad imo. A temporary/cumulative penalty to Attacks (until the end of the next Assault Phase, as with Thunder Hammer) would be better.
Silent Hand Sternguard I like, I guess they won't get special ammo though. They would be useful as a backfield unit with two heavy weapons, though.
Pred must be like 140-150 pts base (without weapons) with its sheer power.
If the Battlesuit is HQ, then it's somewhat okay... if not, and it's a squad, nerf it down, it's too powerful. W2 and two weapons should be okay.
Silencers just fuck over certain armies. Nah, just make KI immune. And they don't have limited use, such powerful, Eldar-grade psychic defense is more useful than you think.
Machine Spirit is questionable. What would you need it for, especially with its price (as there is no downside like with Daemonic Posession)? Dreadnoughts? And the fluff means that the crew is not actually needed anymore... AI handles everything adequately enough. Too advanced for 40k.
Penetrating AV11 is easy. Sure, that's some additional protection against penetration hits, but again, what there can be on the table that would need that kind of survivability? And what can the opponent do against 4+ perma-cover, void shielded and AI-controlled Land Raider? That level of awesome is only suitable for an Adeptus Mechanius army...
"Bright grenades" = blind grenades. Grey Knights Codex, p.60. And no, that's not mere flashbangs, they exactly match your description. The choice of Frag or Blind grenades could force some tactical decisions...
GAC is very OP. It pens any armor on 3+ with re-roll (Ordnance), adding +1 on Vehicle Damage Chart, while camping in your Deployment Zone. Who needs any other anti-tank?
Hellstorm suffers from Too Many Rules syndrome. ;)
Holo-field is OP. 4+ has made Tankhammer 40k possible. 5+ is enough a buff for Space Marines, and even that implies Eldar levels of technology.
Lancer. Now we also hit on 3+ w/ reroll? Goddammit.
Melta Cannon is already done on Devil Dog. It's 24" S8 AP1 Blast, Melta.
Melta Pistols are Infernuses of BA Codex. And these are exclusive for BA for a reason... KI aren't known for getting close and personal, where Infernus can be brought to bear.
Almost nobody uses HKMs, making it more pricey won't make it a good buy.
The restriction of BA kind of Fast is not its cost, it's that it's mandatory, and you pay for it even if you don't want to. Giving players a choice is either cheese or crap, depends on point cost. There is no middle ground, Fast is powerful.
Any downside to better Plasmaguns? S6 maybe, or change to 30" S7 AP2 Heavy 1?
Buffing facings is OP. Yeah, you can enjoy front AV14 Predator in cover. Your opponent won't.
Rending bolters don't scare me. Vengeance rounds do, mildly.
Stalker bolters could be issued to Scouts and Tacs, too. Maybe a maximum of five per squad. They're still somewhat rare, even if KI produce more. Combat Squads would make an excellent use of them — the heavy weapon ones, that is.
Stealth Field is OP. Yeah, try to shoot it. If you manage to get past the Night Fighting, you may try to do any damage to 2+. Way too powerful for any price — it basically makes a unit invulnerable for a 1/6 of the game.
Relentless is limited to Terminators, Battlesuits and Bikes. No exceptions. And Power Armor is 3+, always. You may have the suits (or maybe carapace-plated exoskeletons, like modern Japanese ones in development) support the weight and recoil of a heavy weapon, so only a single human is required to operate one, but not Relentless.
Soo. Any other ideas? The Codex will need fixing to be balanced, that's certain, IF you want it to be playable, that is.
- Thanks for the critical feedback, you do realize these are all un-updated prototype rules that I've not even looked at nor added to the codex at all? I'm a little bit busy balancing units (not including wargear) and writing the codex pages. But your criticism is appreciated, and will help me avoid having to go through too many play-test games like I did with the Angry Marines Codex...
- "Why are they not Pinnable? Sounds reasonable to go to ground if under sniper fire, and they're Ld10 anyway, so the immunity is a waste. And pinned squads can't use defensive grenades, too." They are not Ld10 anyway, unless they have a Ld10 character in the squad. You have a point there though, perhaps I'll make it that they count as Ld10 for the purpose of Pinning and Tank Shock tests.
- "I guess Practical Warfare allows the whole army to Infiltrate... dunno. Combat Tactics sound more reasonable. You already have Stealth and Defensive Grenades as options, including Infiltrate basically makes Power Armored Marines act like Scouts. Which is, while flavorful, bad in game. And Infiltrating transports? Wat?" That's the point, and besides that rule they are regular Space Marines with unique options. They cannot outflank, and they are paying heavy points per Marine in order to do so +3 for a regular marine, I could make it +4, which is Grey Knight level cost. However, I do admit infiltrating transports is a bit much and may have it that they cannot infiltrate as far in with transports 18" to 24" etc.
- "Pariahs are not targetable by psychic powers. I guess KI should do without any Librarians and Silencers to balance — in return, the opponent can't affect the Knights and their vehicles with any psychic powers (including AoE), but he still can buff his own units. Shadow in the Warp-like mechanic could represent their emptiness — cast on 3D6 within 12", but can't suffer Perils as the warp is pacified." Perhaps Silencers will be reduced to living Runes of Warding? That can work, trying to make powers for Nulls is hard enough. And they will count as automatically having defensive grenades for the squad they are attached to (due to their horrifying aura). And makes the squad they are in immune to Psychic powers.
- "If you will include Librarians... well. Radiant Shield with Camo Cloaks means 3++ — OP. 36" Warp Lance on an Independent Character — OP (poor Zoanthropes, even they only get 18" and 3++). Wind Walker — blatantly OP. Charge range of 24" with ordinary troops? Wait, is that half of the goddamn board? Sword dunno, messing with your opponent's stats, permanently and cumulatively, is bad imo. A temporary/cumulative penalty to Attacks (until the end of the next Assault Phase, as with Thunder Hammer) would be better." I always have trouble making balanced psyker abilities, don't worry, these are not "as is" for the codex.
- "Silent Hand Sternguard I like, I guess they won't get special ammo though. They would be useful as a backfield unit with two heavy weapons, though." They will be "free" upgrades for Sternguard Veteran squads now (they lose special ammo, gain the new bolter and camo cloak for free).
- "Pred must be like 140-150 pts base (without weapons) with its sheer power." I can do that, and final points tuning will be based off of play-testing.
- "If the Battlesuit is HQ, then it's somewhat okay... if not, and it's a squad, nerf it down, it's too powerful. W2 and two weapons should be okay." The Battlesuit is a single model (they only made the one) and takes up an Elites slot. Any other suggestions? It'll be WS3 and can only fire 2 weapons at maximum (at a time).
- "Silencers just fuck over certain armies. Nah, just make KI immune. And they don't have limited use, such powerful, Eldar-grade psychic defense is more useful than you think." I will probably be making them into what I mentioned somewhere above. And if I made Knights Inductor immune, they'd spike up in price, which I don't want happening.
- "Machine Spirit is questionable. What would you need it for, especially with its price (as there is no downside like with Daemonic Posession)? Dreadnoughts? And the fluff means that the crew is not actually needed anymore... AI handles everything adequately enough. Too advanced for 40k." I don't have their codex on me right now, but what does Daemonic Posession do again? I might have it be similar copy or upgrades of that for the Knights Inductor
- "Penetrating AV11 is easy. Sure, that's some additional protection against penetration hits, but again, what there can be on the table that would need that kind of survivability? And what can the opponent do against 4+ perma-cover, void shielded and AI-controlled Land Raider? That level of awesome is only suitable for an Adeptus Mechanius army..." With the ramped upgrades costs based on vehicle, that would be a very, very, VERY expensive Land Raider not worth taking in a normal game... (points balances itself out, you won't have much of an army at that point). However the Aprior sector prides itself on innovation, and they certainly have some mechanical units that equal some of the stuff the Adeptus Mechanicus have to offer.
- "Bright grenades" = blind grenades. Grey Knights Codex, p.60. And no, that's not mere flashbangs, they exactly match your description. The choice of Frag or Blind grenades could force some tactical decisions..." I copied this off of the Vindicare entry directly, not planning on changing it, unless you have some optional description/fluff to put in? And forcing tactical decisions? Good, that's what this game is all about.
- "GAC is very OP. It pens any armor on 3+ with re-roll (Ordnance), adding +1 on Vehicle Damage Chart, while camping in your Deployment Zone. Who needs any other anti-tank?" It will be either very expensive or have a very limited ammo capacity. Perhaps a mere three shots before the barrel overheats or whatnot. Or a per-turn cooldown. I've also already going added the fact that these experimental weaponry options are going to be limited to one per army unless they have a Techpriest or Forge Master.
- "Hellstorm suffers from Too Many Rules syndrome. ;)" I'm going to make it work, somehow. Perhaps Manticore missiles style.
- "Holo-field is OP. 4+ has made Tankhammer 40k possible. 5+ is enough a buff for Space Marines, and even that implies Eldar levels of technology." OK, 5+ it is. And once again, innovation and assimilation. It's not that far of a stretch to say that the Aprior R&D have managed a limited version of the Eldar holo-field
- "Lancer. Now we also hit on 3+ w/ reroll? Goddammit." Very expensive, limited shot, one experimental weapon per army
- "Melta Cannon is already done on Devil Dog. It's 24" S8 AP1 Blast, Melta." Why the hell not? KI can have them too! :D
- "Melta Pistols are Infernuses of BA Codex. And these are exclusive for BA for a reason... KI aren't known for getting close and personal, where Infernus can be brought to bear." Makes sense, if I find I'm running out of space to put in wargear, these can go
- "Almost nobody uses HKMs, making it more pricey won't make it a good buy." Perhaps I'll convert a tracer unit on it. Or something. Or Havoc missiles style, now that is something a KI army could use!
- "The restriction of BA kind of Fast is not its cost, it's that it's mandatory, and you pay for it even if you don't want to. Giving players a choice is either cheese or crap, depends on point cost. There is no middle ground, Fast is powerful." In fact, I hate it, and I hate Matt Ward for putting it with BA. This codex can do without it, though I am going to try to think of another vehicle buff.
- "Any downside to better Plasmaguns? S6 maybe, or change to 30" S7 AP2 Heavy 1?" Dunno, they'd get pretty expensive as they are. Perhaps there's firing modes for S6 AP2 and S7 AP3...
- "Buffing facings is OP. Yeah, you can enjoy front AV14 Predator in cover. Your opponent won't." Ramped costs, double for rear armor. It's going to be a very expensive option
- "Rending bolters don't scare me. Vengeance rounds do, mildly." Rending bolters don't make KI explode if they use them. Are you suggesting I should buff said Rending ammo a little bit more?
- "Stalker bolters could be issued to Scouts and Tacs, too. Maybe a maximum of five per squad. They're still somewhat rare, even if KI produce more. Combat Squads would make an excellent use of them — the heavy weapon ones, that is." I'll have to see about that. For Scouts, it makes sense, but Tactical squads tend to have so many options already it gets pretty cluttered up. Perhaps a Sergeant upgrade?
- "Stealth Field is OP. Yeah, try to shoot it. If you manage to get past the Night Fighting, you may try to do any damage to 2+. Way too powerful for any price — it basically makes a unit invulnerable for a 1/6 of the game." ...That bad, huh? I'll take out the Night Fighting rule then. And they are not invulnerable, close to it, but not quite. It's not an Invulnerable save either, use your imagination to deal with cover saves.
- "Relentless is limited to Terminators, Battlesuits and Bikes. No exceptions. And Power Armor is 3+, always. You may have the suits (or maybe carapace-plated exoskeletons, like modern Japanese ones in development) support the weight and recoil of a heavy weapon, so only a single human is required to operate one, but not Relentless." .........I really want it in there, probably will have to be expensive if you really hate it that bad. It's only a 4+ armor save, and it won't be anything better than that. Only heavy-weapon models can take it, and it'll cost more than just a little. I don't see it as extremely game-breaking.
- "Soo. Any other ideas? The Codex will need fixing to be balanced, that's certain, IF you want it to be playable, that is." I haven't posted any other ideas except for the codex pages for the individual squads/units/vehicles/etc. I'm not doing this without conferring with other players and I get feedback from some respectable players online as well as IRL. If you want the completed codex pages that I've done, post an email and I can send them in PDF format. As always, thank you for the criticism and I look forward to this little project being something special. Remoon101 16:47, 12 May 2012 (BST)
Criticism aside, here are my suggestions:
Armywide special rules:
Cold-blooded: The Knights Inductor had always lacked the basic righteous fury of the Adeptus Astartes against the enemies of the Imperium, despite outside attempts at conditioning them. However, they are incredibly level-headed in even the most stressful of situations, allowing them to make calm, modulated command decisions. Knights Inductor with this rule are Stubborn. Futhermore, they benefit from the Combat Tactics special rule, and regroup automatically, ignoring all usual restrictions.
Practical Warfare: The Knights Inductor are not above using tactics other Astartes would brand dishonorable. Camouflage, advanced technology and powerful ranged weaponry are all frequently used, denying the enemy a chance to get to grips in bloody melee. Knights Inductor with this rule benefit from the Stealth USR, as described in the rulebook, but only while stationary. In addition, units with this rule may exchange their Frag Grenades for Blind Grenades for free.
Empyrean Anathema: All Knights Inductor are psychic blanks, and are naturally very resistant to the energies of the Warp. All psychic powers that directly target a unit with this special rule are cast at -4 Ld.
MkI Prototype Battlesuit (Elite choice):
- WS4 BS5 S5 T5 W3 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
- Unit type: Jetpack Infantry.
- Special rules: Independent Character, Fire Support.
- Fire Support: May fire at a different enemy unit than the unit he is with.
- Weapons: 2 Terminator-grade Heavy weapons (autocannon, assault cannon and heavy flamer included) or 2 Terminator-grade CCWs (lightning claw, thunder hammer, chainfist, force shield), and an option for a shoulder-mounted Cyclone missile launcher. May fire 2 weapons on the move.
- Omni-pod: An experimental piece of technology, it allows to rapidly change one mounted ranged weapon without the lengthy process of disassembling the whole weapon mount. You may choose the ranged weapon mounted in the pod before the battle instead of choosing at the army creation. Maximum of one per suit.
Silencer (HQ choice):
- WS5 BS4 S4 T4 W3 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv3+
- Unit type: Infantry.
- Wargear: Power armor, bolt pistol, Null Sword, frag grenades, krak grenades, psyk-out grenades.
- Null Sword: Null sword is a power weapon. In the hands of a Silencer, it is capable of wrestling the very soul out of a sentient creature. Models that suffered one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Silencer with Null Sword must test Ld or suffer Instant Death. Psykers are affected automatically.
- Special rules: Fearless, Psychic Monster, Independent Character.
- Psychic Monster: A Silencer, and the unit to which he is attached, can't be affected by any psychic powers in any way. All enemy units within 12" of a Silencer suffer -1 to their Ld, and all enemy psykers suffer -4 to Ld due to their dreadsome nature. Additionally, psykers engaged in close combat with a unit that includes a Silencer are not allowed to cast any psychic powers (and activate their force weapons).
Advanced Machine Spirit: While creating new machine spirits, and coaxing those of the enemy is still out of their hands, the Apriori tech adepts have managed to amplify and boost the "awareness" and power of those subservient to the Knights Inductor. These technologies has created tensions between them and Adeptus Mechanicus, as the cognitive power of this Spirit skirts on the very edge of techno-heresy. May be installed on any Knights Inductor vehicle, and, in addition to providing the benefits of a Machine Spirit, it the vehicle may ignore Crew Shaken result on 3+ and Crew Stunned result on 5+.
Forcefield generators: May be installed in place of sponson weapons. Provide +1 to the side AV, up to maximum of 14.
Cameleoline armor plates: The vehicle has Stealth USR when stationary.
Holo-field generators: A series of small devices installed throughout the entire hull that distort the outline of a vehicle. It counts as Obscured if the firer is more than 18" away.
Stummers and noise dampeners: Units with this upgrade may Infiltrate if the mission allows them to, but they cannot setup less than within 18" of the enemy, within LoS or not.
Magnetic Accelerator Cannon: Utilizing the reverse-engineered aspects of Tau technology and half-forgotten STC designs, Apriori technicians managed to create a powerful coil gun that shoots solid slugs of magnetic materials with incredible velocity and decent fire rate. Range: 48" S9 AP2 Heavy 2, *Piercing.
- Piercing: The slug launched by the MAC is more than capable of piercing an infantryman right through with minimal speed loss. When shooting at an infantry unit, draw a straight line for each shot from the MAC touching at least one model in the target unit. All models along that line are hit automatically. Roll to wound as normal, and wound allocation still applies.
Land Raider Athena: Variant endemic to Apriori sector, this tank mounts the enormous Heavy Magnetic Accelerator Cannon in its hull, forgoing all transport capacity in order to become the ultimate tank hunter, capable of destroying an armored column in one ground-breaking shot. Heavy Magnetic Accelerator Cannon: Range: 72" S10 AP1 Ordnance 1, Armor Piercing.
- Armor Piercing: When firing HMAC at a vehicle, draw a line from its muzzle that touches the hull of the target. If the Armor Penetration roll scored two more than the AV of that facing, then the slug has pierced the vehicle right through. If there is another vehicle further along the line, it is automatically hit. Subtract one from the Strength of the hit, minus one for each Armor Value of the pierced vehicle above 10 (so after piercing a Rhino with AV11 the next vehicle is hit at S8). If that vehicle is pierced too, continue to resolve the shot until there are no vehicles in the way or the shot failed to pierce.
Hurricane: A variant of the Whirlwind fire support vehicle, it mounts an upgraded multiple missile launcher that can be used to provide fire support against a variety of targets. Hurricane Multiple Missile Launcher:
- Vengeance Missiles: Range 12"-48" S5 AP4 Ordnance Barrage 2, Large Blast
- Castellan Missiles: Range 12"-48" S4 AP5 Ordnance Barrage 2, Large Blast, Ignores Cover
- Hellfire Missiles: Range 12"-48" SX AP5 Ordnance Barrage 2, Blast, Poisoned (4+)
- Retribution Missiles: Range 12"-48" S8 AP2 Ordnance 2
- I agree with mostly everything that you have posted with the exception of the Special Army rules. There will always be tweaking, the but the point of having the equivalent of Infiltrate is to introduce a new way of play, but at the cost of having an elitist army practically on par with GK without having all the cool wargear (and you can't out flank either). I can make it +4 points per Knight and charge even more for transports or elite models, but they're already paying +3. I'm not going to change it until I get more feedback or playtest it. The other way I could go with it is giving them the equivalent of Scouts and no outflanking, if that's more palatable (wait, no, that's worse, then they also get the +6" movement). I like most of your other revisions and I'll be incorporating some of them as I continue fleshing out the build Remoon101 20:53, 14 May 2012 (BST)
- I like your crunch for "Cold Blooded" (though I'm not so wild about the name), but I'm not sure that regular Knights should get a leadership-penalty bubble (per your Empyrean Anathema rule) -- the modifications to their gene-seed give them a resistance to Warp powers, but otherwise have little effect on bystanders.
- Silencers really should be more like Librarians, i.e. single HQ choices -- the Knights do everything they can to get Blanks to become Marines, but there are so few of them that the number of Silencers is not very different from the number of Librarians in most chapters. That said, I do like the idea of attaching a Silencer to a squad to make them psyker-proof.
- That's all for now -- I'm also generally satisfied. --Not LongPoster Again 21:33, 14 May 2012 (BST)
- I'm not against Infiltrate, but I feel the main feature of all KI is their camouflage and ranged tactics, not right-behind-you attitude of, say, Raven Guard. Why would you need to infiltrate Devastators, for example? Thus, you can buy Infiltrate as an upgrade if you wish (worded as upgrades th the armor that reduce noise; it's more important in infiltrations than reducing optical visibility, as the enemy may spot a camouflaged soldier easily from a short range), but army-wide they have the more "passive" and useful Stealth. Due to them also having Stubborn and the ever useful Combat Tactics (they are effectively Fearless, with CT and auto-regroup, while not suffering No Retreat! wounds in every combat), though, I feel they shouldn't have Stealth while moving, as that's a very powerful ability. I've played Stealth Marines as Raptors, using Lias Issodon from IA9; it was awesome, especially combined with Techmarines to make everyone in two ruins 2++!
- Regarding "piercing" weapons, you might want to check out the "Rail" weapon type from the alleged sixth edition draft rulebook. I'm not a crunch expert, but it has much the same idea of "a projectile blasts through everything."
- I'm not sure about the Hurricane -- does it have 56 missiles? (2 rockets per salvo, 1 salvo per turn, 7 turns, 4 types of missiles). I think the rocket types themselves make sense, but it seems a little strange logistically. Of course, the Whirlwind apparently has 14 missiles inside (2 types of missiles, 1 missile per salvo, 1 salvo per turn, 7 turns) while the actual model only shows 4.
- Regarding Advanced Machine Spirit: do you mean that it confers the benefits of "Power of the Machine Spirit"?
- Also, I fixed the formatting a little. --Not LongPoster Again 15:38, 15 May 2012 (BST)
Empyrean Anathema Rule will remain much like it originally was; giving them that kind of bonus to reduce leadership does not match fluff and would individually increase points costs (unacceptable...). I'll relent on the Practical Warfare rule change, in any case it'll make the whole gig cheaper (+2 points only, at most). So a basic Tactical KI would be 18 points, which is affordable. I'll probably be trying to find another name for it as well, maybe Covert Warfare or Shadow Warfare or another name that conveys their stealth/ranged tactics better. Practical Warfare is... a little silly considering that most races would be using some form of "practical warfare"
"Cold Blooded" is not going to be its name, obviously, it's out of character. I'll have to write in the description for Combat Tactics however, I don't want players having to refer to another Codex to find it. Stubborn sounds fine and fits the fluff. I'm assuming this is basically a superior version of Combat Tactics with Stubborn.
Btw, for all intents and purposes, the Magnetic Accelerator Cannon is the Gravitic Accelerator Cannon, I named it that way for reason; it matches the currently written fluff (they reversed engineered anti-grav technology to achieve it).
Silencers are still HQ's. Living Runes of Warding, basically, or whatever you guys have to add. Psychic Monster (the name of the rule) will be changed, they are neither monsters nor are they psychic.
I just realized that we took out one half of a powerful special rule (Infiltrate) and added half of another one (Stealth), and then put one whole other Special Rule (Stubborn) in there. This means +4pts per standard Knight, if not even more. So a regular Tactical KI would be 20pts... we've just reached GK level! :D We can keep these rules in, but now we're slightly underpowered for our points cost. Or not, depending on how you look at it. I can make Blind grenades standard to compensate, but that's a pretty powerful piece of waragear, and make each KI even more expensive!
The point of having an Infiltrate is army is not to get close in (unless the unit Infiltrating is geared for that), but to allow for superior pre-battle positioning. They basically set up after the enemy sets up every single time, and can set up in any position at 18" or more away, so it's possible for Devastators to end up in a final position of having a free flank shot at a line of tanks. It was also meant to represent their silenced armor and stealth tactics getting them there (and allowing them to Infiltrate) in the first place. That was my reasoning behind the original rule, but I've already agreed to let it go in place of half-Stealth.
Now the problem is Stubborn, unless you see 20pt standard Knights not being a problem, and a welcome challenge, which is fine with me.
Remoon101 02:35, 16 May 2012 (BST)
- I just conferred with a few of my fellow gamers about the price of a vanilla Marine added with the new, modified special rules (not including Empyrean Anathema). They came up with a relatively reasonable estimate of anywhere from 22-25points for a standard Tactical Knight. More than a standard GK, but you really can't compare to GK (who are fundamentally broken). But with the amount of benefits from the special rules and everything, 22-25points sounds about right. You'll be running a very "elite" army at that point, with relatively standard wargear with slightly fancier options. On the bright side, it gives me an excuse to toss in blind grenades for free, assuming we make a standard Knight Inductor marine 25pts each. Remoon101 20:19, 16 May 2012 (BST)
What does 6th edition do to the Knights, since they're presumably still in development? Before finding the Knights Inductor pages I was working on re-fluffing the Reasonable Marines myself along similar lines (called them the Torchbearers, for bearing the light of reason; perhaps the planned successor chapter) and play my Guard army as their chapter auxiliaries, but got nowhere near as far as you. Tactical Genius 02:50, 26 July 2012 (BST)
Also Head's up I'm working on the ASIS codex, so I'll use your stat line for the Order of Reason's Light, and make acts of faith based on HQ or special characters(IE a confessor who's thirty years in the guard let's him reroll faith points.)Voidsman 22:14, 3 August 2012 (BST)
- 6th edition is definitely going to be changing the plans I've had for rules and especially certain rules for pieces of wargear. It's also changing the Angry Marines codex so I'm going to be quickly updating that before working on Knights Inductor again. I haven't even gotten into playtesting the Knights Inductor yet... Remoon101 01:33, 17 August 2012 (BST)
- If you want a playtest partner and don't have people locally who will do it, I'm a competent Guard player and have the Vassal online tabletop system with the 40k module. I'd be willing to give it a go, though online doesn't translate nearly as well as actual tabletop. Tactical Genius 00:09, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Re: Re: Codex: Knights Inductor 6th Edition
All ye who post here may make a topic on the relevant section of the codex (in progress) that you want to criticize, discuss, or even possibly add to. General discussion on the latest edition of this codex in progress goes under here basically
Hey Voidsman here, I'm thinking you should limit the sisters of the Order of Reason's Light, I'd limit it to one squad per primary detachment, but two or three wouldn't be too bad. Primarily to show that they are separate armies, but that they occasionally work together. I also have some tweaks to make to my 'dex and once you're satisfied with the Knight's codex, I'd be up for helping with an Apriori Guard codex, in particular ideas concerning airborne infantry.Voidsman (talk) 03:46, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if I'm even adding auxiliaries to the main codex at this point to be honest, Sisters or Guard. For an Apriori Guard dex though I actually have a codex I wrote up for something else a while ago, advanced humans on a planet called RaGoon that would do pretty well for the Apriori Guard. Remoon101 (talk) 15:27, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Remoon, the silencers need to have more then one wound base. A hq choice with one wound? Not a good plan. Make them both 2 wounds, even if not three for the secundus
I have also lowered the base cost for Supressors - What does it matter that they can infiltrate, they carry big guns designed for long range. All they have over the regular marines is the rerolls thing. I made the 22 points each, I think that is fair
I think that you should remake Kraken Bolts into an upgrade that more or less anything can take. It adds 6" of range and +1 AP at a cost of between +2 and +5 points a model, more for tanks. All HQ options with bolt weapons have it standard. I think that this is a good way to make this balanced - you can have your Kraken Bolts if you want them but you need to pay for it.
Why did you change The Unseen again? It was fine as it was wasn't it?
- I was giving the whole army concept a lot of thought and came to the conclusion that the army should be focused on suppressing the enemy and giving them little opportunity to fight back properly or mount a sufficient defense before being overwhelmed by assault units and firepower. While I don't want anything overpowered along those lines, I feel like trying to base the Knights around Pinning, Concussion and Blind rules would be an interesting way to go at it as there isn't really a Space Marine chapter or an army in general that focuses so much on limiting the enemy's killing power directly rather than boosting their own.
- As for changing The Unseen special rule I'm just trying to head out in the direction of this new army concept that would fit the Knights. Infiltrate is powerful because it lets you essentially deploy after the enemy deploys, not just that it lets you get in closer earlier. So I nerfed that part a bit since Knights don't want to get in close and see if I could add a semi-situational Pinning rule to round it out.
- This also separates them greatly from the Raptor chapter (which are the closest to GW based reasonable marines apparently) in terms of deployment (Infiltrate versus Scout) and gameplay (Rending versus Pinning). Remoon101 (talk) 01:16, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
Just a question but when and how are you going to include Kraken bolts? I think that, as Knights Inductor canon, they should be included but how do you want to do it?
- Probably a "bulk" package option upgrade like I did for Stunner bolts. X amount for the whole squad, inefficient upgrade at lower model count and higher efficiency the more you take instead of a by model basis. Also, I want you to know that the KI fluff is very open to change right now, so Kraken bolts are probably going out as being the KI standard, but rather just another wargear option standard units can take. Kraken heavy bolters on that note are out, too unbalanced and the stats didn't make sense in the first place. Remoon101 (talk) 12:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the return. How are you going to manage the points costs for them both? I recomend something along the lines of 15 points for the unit as a whole for the entire game or maybe even 25 to balance it out to favor giant squads. I agree with you about heavy bolters, that was slightly OP. I personally reckon that all HQ options should have acess to it standard. How about making it available for heavy bolters as well but costing something ridiculous like 35 - 50 points for the high end heavy bolter units such as supressors or marauders. You could even create another thing altogether specifically for it - kraken heavy bolts or summat like that. What about giving stunner bolts concussive a well? That would be fluffy with the idea of "stunning" the enemy as opposed to "blinding" the enemy, as well as improving stunner bolts quite a bit. Also, i agree with you about the always deploying second thing increasing cost but without the FnP and kraken bolts standard, i reckon 6pts up is a bit excessive for just that and a fancy grenade- mirmidion43
- Most likely looking at 20pts for a box. HQ Options will not have them standard, but I have added them to Special Wargear as an option for a cheap price. I am planning on something else for the heavy weapons in terms of alternative ammo, think "Hellfire shells", along those lines. I took out concussive because it's just not that useful of an item on ranged weapons, plus the Blind special rule represents the "stunning" effect just fine. I am planning on reducing standard Tactical Knight cost to 20pts, trust me, it's not going to stay that high. Remoon101 (talk) 12:51, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
You could introduce a special unique rule to stunner bolts like "flash packages" or something. It would alter blind into being if the unit suffers an unsaved wound at all, they are reduced to I and WS 1 for the rest of the turn which would, in my opinion, reduce the weaknesses of blind (the initiative test) and include concussive in a way that would be fluffy to their description - "leaving the enemy stunned and easy prey for a close combat unit to mop up"