User talk:SabbatMartyr

From 1d4chan

I just want to point out that in comparing the Emperor's Children Sun Killers to the Iron Warriors Havocs, the fact that the Iron Warriors can move, shoot and still reduce enemy cover is a useless point since doing so reduces them to BS 1. Nobody moves and tries to hit shit with a Heavy Support Squad of any kind for that reason (unless they've got Heavy Flamers or are Sons of Horus using a Rite to give them Relentless) so it's pointless to hold that as an advantage to flaunt. You'll never make your points back like that. -- Triacom (talk) 00:27, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Also if we're going to looking at anti-infantry, Plasma Cannons are objectively superior to Heavy Bolters. The reasons you'd want the Heavy Bolters is either for the cheap cost, the special ammo, or because the opponent would get a good cover save anyway, but since the Sun Killers ignore cover the only defense is an invulnerable save, which most squads don't have (and the ones who do, will probably already have a 2+ save so the Heavy Bolters are useless). Volkite Culverins also crush the Heavy Bolters in terms of Anti-infantry capability, and that is an option the Havocs don't get. In short, it's fair to say that the Sun Killers are better versions of Havocs, even though they shouldn't be. -- Triacom (talk)

  • Yeah I know, but I was just pointing things out and it does give them a little more tactical flexibility is you need to move and shoot them. Though I do think the section of "Sun Killers are better than Iron Havocs" was wrong since with the same weapons they cost nearly the same and Iron Havocs come with Tank Hunters which gives them the edge over Sun Killers in most anti-vehicle roles. Also on the anti-infantry roles Iron Havocs with Shrapnel Heavy Bolters are much cheaper than Sun Killers, since Sun Killers do the backwards thing of paying for the most expensive option and then taking the others for free, so an anti-infantry/harassment role a unit of Sun Killers will be less points effective than a unit of Iron Havocs even with superior weapons. Sun Killers are great, I'm not arguing against that. But I think Iron Havocs are just that little bit better since they come with more useful rules and equipment or a much cheaper depending on the weapons they take. -- SabbatMartyr (talk) 00:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
With Tank Hunters the Havocs are slightly better at killing vehicles, but even with their more expensive cost, the Sun Killers with Culverins cause 43% more damage than Havocs with Heavy Bolters, and assuming they can get least eight hits with 5 Plasma Cannons (also factoring in Get's Hot) they'll do 62% more damage. The extra wounds over the course of two shooting phases for the Culverins, or one for the Cannons, more than makes up for the increased cost. -- Triacom (talk) 00:58, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
I concede that Sun Killers are superior at killing infantry, but Iron Havocs are more flexible and better at killing vehicles with their Lascannons and Missile launchers with Tank hunters. Honestly they're so similar it's probably pointless splitting hairs about which one is better since they're about the same. -- SabbatMartyr (talk) 02:53, 18 March 2022 (UTC)
While I already agreed the Havocs were better at killing vehicles, I don't agree that they're more versatile. Volkite Culverins and Plasma Cannons are much better against Infantry than the Missile Launchers, and the squad can be given a mix of weapons, just like the Iron Warriors Havocs. This means you can take several Plasma Cannons or Volkite Culverins (both of which the Havocs have no access to) and combine it with a few Lascannons for good anti-tank and anti-infantry (or sniping out Artificer Armour) if you're really worried about versatility. -- Triacom (talk) 03:04, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

About Bitter Duty[edit]

The rule only goes one way in 2.0. Characters without Bitter Duty cannot join units that have it, and that's it. Characters with Bitter Duty are not prevented from joining any unit they want in this edition. -- Triacom (talk) 01:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess that's technically correct. I read Bitter Duty as both the main unit and character requiring this rule to join each other, but I guess it does only effect things like Destroyers since only Characters can Join units. I would be surprised if it didn't get an FAQ later though. -- SabbatMartyr (talk) 15:24, 30 July 2022 (UTC)